Comments on: Could we have “stages” for programmers? http://rc3.org/2009/11/02/could-we-have-stages-for-programmers/ Strong opinions weakly held Fri, 10 Feb 2012 14:59:55 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: chet http://rc3.org/2009/11/02/could-we-have-stages-for-programmers/comment-page-1/#comment-7030 chet Fri, 06 Nov 2009 22:18:33 +0000 http://rc3.org/?p=10243#comment-7030 <p>http://www.oraclenerd.com/2009/10/free-oracle-developerdba.html</p> <p>Funny, I'm trying this now.</p> <p>Complete with an ad on craigslist!</p> <p>I've got nothing so far, but I'm still willing to try.</p> http://www.oraclenerd.com/2009/10/free-oracle-developerdba.html

Funny, I’m trying this now.

Complete with an ad on craigslist!

I’ve got nothing so far, but I’m still willing to try.

]]> By: Dan Lyke http://rc3.org/2009/11/02/could-we-have-stages-for-programmers/comment-page-1/#comment-7023 Dan Lyke Wed, 04 Nov 2009 16:30:52 +0000 http://rc3.org/?p=10243#comment-7023 <p>Jeff, yeah, pair programming can work well for really conceptually difficult stuff, but for the day-in day-out code just seems to get in the way. I do wish I could have a little more code review than my current situation gives me, which can give much of what pair programming offers.</p> <p>Although it took one incident nearly 20 years ago where the person looking at a memory manager said "I don't quite understand that line, but I'll trust you do" to convince me that we have to be brutal about making sure our audience understands it and not taking the easy way out: Sure enough, that was an edge case that was wrong. On the good side, we found a <em>ton</em> of other bugs because we were convinced that the memory manager was bug-free...</p> <p>Jacob, I'd love more small conferences! And I don't go to nearly enough of them, even though I'm in the Bay Area and should just do day trips.</p> Jeff, yeah, pair programming can work well for really conceptually difficult stuff, but for the day-in day-out code just seems to get in the way. I do wish I could have a little more code review than my current situation gives me, which can give much of what pair programming offers.

Although it took one incident nearly 20 years ago where the person looking at a memory manager said “I don’t quite understand that line, but I’ll trust you do” to convince me that we have to be brutal about making sure our audience understands it and not taking the easy way out: Sure enough, that was an edge case that was wrong. On the good side, we found a ton of other bugs because we were convinced that the memory manager was bug-free…

Jacob, I’d love more small conferences! And I don’t go to nearly enough of them, even though I’m in the Bay Area and should just do day trips.

]]> By: Jacob Davies http://rc3.org/2009/11/02/could-we-have-stages-for-programmers/comment-page-1/#comment-7018 Jacob Davies Tue, 03 Nov 2009 21:32:32 +0000 http://rc3.org/?p=10243#comment-7018 <p>Conferences of various sizes (I like the much smaller ones - but not as much as I like staying home...) are pretty much the same thing. You share something about how you do things, you hope for some feedback, the audience hopefully learns something too.</p> Conferences of various sizes (I like the much smaller ones – but not as much as I like staying home…) are pretty much the same thing. You share something about how you do things, you hope for some feedback, the audience hopefully learns something too.

]]> By: Jeff http://rc3.org/2009/11/02/could-we-have-stages-for-programmers/comment-page-1/#comment-7016 Jeff Tue, 03 Nov 2009 21:01:31 +0000 http://rc3.org/?p=10243#comment-7016 <p>Dan, I think you are right. Open Source is probably the equivalent to what Rafe is talking about.</p> <p>When I read Rafe's idea I immediately thought of pair programming, which is nice the times I've done it...but it gets old kinda fast. Short doses are good :)</p> Dan, I think you are right. Open Source is probably the equivalent to what Rafe is talking about.

When I read Rafe’s idea I immediately thought of pair programming, which is nice the times I’ve done it…but it gets old kinda fast. Short doses are good :)

]]> By: Dan Lyke http://rc3.org/2009/11/02/could-we-have-stages-for-programmers/comment-page-1/#comment-7013 Dan Lyke Tue, 03 Nov 2009 20:08:39 +0000 http://rc3.org/?p=10243#comment-7013 <p>Perhaps things are changing, but it sure seems to me like a good up-and-coming programmer will either start their own company, or develop an open source package, rather than work for someone else for free.</p> <p>The other side of this is that I'm not terribly sure how much industry has to teach right now. The state of "software engineering", so far as I can tell, has moved backwards since I entered the field. Maybe I'm just cynical because I'm working with the deep bowels of Windows today, but in the past several years any time I've worked with someone who's way enthusiastic and up on the latest software engineering fads, they've ended up being more of an impediment to shipping.</p> <p>I also think that since prepared food is largely theater, and margins depend on selling a myth to the customer, that the traditions are more important than places where function has higher precedence.</p> Perhaps things are changing, but it sure seems to me like a good up-and-coming programmer will either start their own company, or develop an open source package, rather than work for someone else for free.

The other side of this is that I’m not terribly sure how much industry has to teach right now. The state of “software engineering”, so far as I can tell, has moved backwards since I entered the field. Maybe I’m just cynical because I’m working with the deep bowels of Windows today, but in the past several years any time I’ve worked with someone who’s way enthusiastic and up on the latest software engineering fads, they’ve ended up being more of an impediment to shipping.

I also think that since prepared food is largely theater, and margins depend on selling a myth to the customer, that the traditions are more important than places where function has higher precedence.

]]> By: Rob Drimmie http://rc3.org/2009/11/02/could-we-have-stages-for-programmers/comment-page-1/#comment-7011 Rob Drimmie Tue, 03 Nov 2009 18:49:08 +0000 http://rc3.org/?p=10243#comment-7011 <p>I wonder if a developer-appropriate analog might not be week-long programmer exchanges. If there's a development company that yours is close to - be it an official partnership or maybe you play softball against each other or whatnot - maybe you could each send an emissary or two to the other for a week to trade that experience a bit.</p> I wonder if a developer-appropriate analog might not be week-long programmer exchanges. If there’s a development company that yours is close to – be it an official partnership or maybe you play softball against each other or whatnot – maybe you could each send an emissary or two to the other for a week to trade that experience a bit.

]]> By: Travis http://rc3.org/2009/11/02/could-we-have-stages-for-programmers/comment-page-1/#comment-7008 Travis Tue, 03 Nov 2009 16:13:11 +0000 http://rc3.org/?p=10243#comment-7008 <p>Personally I would love to spend a week or two in a different dev shop seeing how they run the ship. But, I'm not sure how much the average dev would be able to contribute in a short amount of time. And I'm not sure how much time the average dev shop would be willing to invest in showing an outside dev the ropes with no real return on that investment. I know that I would be hard pressed to spend enough time with someone, whether I wanted to or not.</p> Personally I would love to spend a week or two in a different dev shop seeing how they run the ship. But, I’m not sure how much the average dev would be able to contribute in a short amount of time. And I’m not sure how much time the average dev shop would be willing to invest in showing an outside dev the ropes with no real return on that investment. I know that I would be hard pressed to spend enough time with someone, whether I wanted to or not.

]]> By: Rob Drimmie http://rc3.org/2009/11/02/could-we-have-stages-for-programmers/comment-page-1/#comment-7007 Rob Drimmie Tue, 03 Nov 2009 15:40:40 +0000 http://rc3.org/?p=10243#comment-7007 <p>Internships are extremely common in almost all post-secondary programs that I'm aware of. I think most are paid these days (at least Canadian co-op positions are). I think that sort of real-world experience as part of the educational process is extremely valuable and serves this role.</p> <p>I think that a week-long pair-programming session for a clearly defined task would be of value to new programmers. In most projects there tends to be some pretty standard rote component work that needs to be done that would be a good candidate for this sort of work. The challenge is finding tasks that are small enough in time.</p> <p>Cooking a great meal is a complicated process, but over the course of a night in the kitchen you're working on several dozen dishes. And in general for most restaurants, preparing a dish is a very specific processes to follow with a measurable outcome. Either meat is cooked medium rare or it isn't. Programming isn't any more complicated than cooking (and in many cases I'd say it's far more simple) but it takes a lot longer so a short-term session like that may not have as much value as a standard 4-month style internship would.</p> Internships are extremely common in almost all post-secondary programs that I’m aware of. I think most are paid these days (at least Canadian co-op positions are). I think that sort of real-world experience as part of the educational process is extremely valuable and serves this role.

I think that a week-long pair-programming session for a clearly defined task would be of value to new programmers. In most projects there tends to be some pretty standard rote component work that needs to be done that would be a good candidate for this sort of work. The challenge is finding tasks that are small enough in time.

Cooking a great meal is a complicated process, but over the course of a night in the kitchen you’re working on several dozen dishes. And in general for most restaurants, preparing a dish is a very specific processes to follow with a measurable outcome. Either meat is cooked medium rare or it isn’t. Programming isn’t any more complicated than cooking (and in many cases I’d say it’s far more simple) but it takes a lot longer so a short-term session like that may not have as much value as a standard 4-month style internship would.

]]> By: Adam Vandenberg http://rc3.org/2009/11/02/could-we-have-stages-for-programmers/comment-page-1/#comment-7006 Adam Vandenberg Tue, 03 Nov 2009 06:15:14 +0000 http://rc3.org/?p=10243#comment-7006 <p>Low paid / intern style positions are common in the videogame industry, borrowing I suppose from the greater "entertainment industry"; too many people competing for not enough jobs. Much more common in the non-engineering positions, though.</p> Low paid / intern style positions are common in the videogame industry, borrowing I suppose from the greater “entertainment industry”; too many people competing for not enough jobs. Much more common in the non-engineering positions, though.

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