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	<title>Comments on: Extreme agility</title>
	<atom:link href="http://rc3.org/2010/02/20/extreme-agility/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://rc3.org/2010/02/20/extreme-agility/</link>
	<description>Strong opinions weakly held</description>
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		<title>By: Warren</title>
		<link>http://rc3.org/2010/02/20/extreme-agility/comment-page-1/#comment-8088</link>
		<dc:creator>Warren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 21:15:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rc3.org/?p=10784#comment-8088</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I am not sure that there are many types of projects other than this where you can get away with the &#039;I do it cause I want to and the client is basically another copy of me so they will like the result too&#039; type of structure. You have a unique environment in which to develop, inspire and in turn be inspired. A shame cause much of the real world has the overlord paying the bills and providing promises to their counterparts, in turn forcing deadlines on the development and expecting to be able to rationalize each part of the process and watch it, because that is there responsibility and expectation. I think the Agile process needs to take in the business owners more than what it now accomplishes with the development team, it&#039;s a great system if you have some good people developing in an area of their interest and the top-end doesn&#039;t play with it or pull the strings too much.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not sure that there are many types of projects other than this where you can get away with the &#8216;I do it cause I want to and the client is basically another copy of me so they will like the result too&#8217; type of structure. You have a unique environment in which to develop, inspire and in turn be inspired. A shame cause much of the real world has the overlord paying the bills and providing promises to their counterparts, in turn forcing deadlines on the development and expecting to be able to rationalize each part of the process and watch it, because that is there responsibility and expectation. I think the Agile process needs to take in the business owners more than what it now accomplishes with the development team, it&#8217;s a great system if you have some good people developing in an area of their interest and the top-end doesn&#8217;t play with it or pull the strings too much.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: @TheSandyWalsh</title>
		<link>http://rc3.org/2010/02/20/extreme-agility/comment-page-1/#comment-8073</link>
		<dc:creator>@TheSandyWalsh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 14:09:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rc3.org/?p=10784#comment-8073</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;@Ryan, how do you prevent developers from half finished projects or spinning off chasing shiny objects?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;At some point you have to deliver that last 20%&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ryan, how do you prevent developers from half finished projects or spinning off chasing shiny objects?</p>

<p>At some point you have to deliver that last 20%</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Montoya</title>
		<link>http://rc3.org/2010/02/20/extreme-agility/comment-page-1/#comment-8066</link>
		<dc:creator>Montoya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:31:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rc3.org/?p=10784#comment-8066</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;This works at my company, but then again, my company is a one-man operation, I make games, and I play all the games I work on.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This works at my company, but then again, my company is a one-man operation, I make games, and I play all the games I work on.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Paul Scott</title>
		<link>http://rc3.org/2010/02/20/extreme-agility/comment-page-1/#comment-8063</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:04:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rc3.org/?p=10784#comment-8063</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;We tend to work in the same way with the AVOIR project (http://avoir.uwc.ac.za) although not officially.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I think the hardest question here is managing delivery dates, and the simple answer to that is to have enough passionate people within your dev community that &lt;em&gt;whatever&lt;/em&gt; comes up &lt;em&gt;someone&lt;/em&gt; will be interested enough to deliver it ASAP.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;We have rarely encountered a problematic situation like this in the past few years of the project, but before we had that critical mass, it was very very difficult.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We tend to work in the same way with the AVOIR project (<a href="http://avoir.uwc.ac.za" rel="nofollow">http://avoir.uwc.ac.za</a>) although not officially.</p>

<p>I think the hardest question here is managing delivery dates, and the simple answer to that is to have enough passionate people within your dev community that <em>whatever</em> comes up <em>someone</em> will be interested enough to deliver it ASAP.</p>

<p>We have rarely encountered a problematic situation like this in the past few years of the project, but before we had that critical mass, it was very very difficult.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Julián Landerreche</title>
		<link>http://rc3.org/2010/02/20/extreme-agility/comment-page-1/#comment-8062</link>
		<dc:creator>Julián Landerreche</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:15:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rc3.org/?p=10784#comment-8062</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Being that half of the interview was answered in &quot;sarcastic mode&quot;, I wonder if the quote regarding their development process isn&#039;t also some kind of joke...
Probably not, as commentators above this comment commented that&#039;s the way things work on GitHub.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Being that half of the interview was answered in &#8220;sarcastic mode&#8221;, I wonder if the quote regarding their development process isn&#8217;t also some kind of joke&#8230;
Probably not, as commentators above this comment commented that&#8217;s the way things work on GitHub.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jason Grant</title>
		<link>http://rc3.org/2010/02/20/extreme-agility/comment-page-1/#comment-8061</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Grant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:57:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rc3.org/?p=10784#comment-8061</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;It implies that nobody talks to nobody in this approach, but the chances are that people are working on:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;ul&gt;
&lt;li&gt;One fairly well focused project only &lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;Are working on pairs or communicating regularly &lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;Are producing something that is very techy oriented (I still haven&#039;t been able to &#039;deploy&#039; GitHub into my environment (even though I want to badly do it) so they are failing somewhere &lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;Their productivity (overall) might be pretty poor - while they might feel like they are doing loads, but in fact GitHub is not known for churning out significant innovations non-stop&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;Their team is likely to be (very) small, so ah-hoc communication will do just fine&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;/ul&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It implies that nobody talks to nobody in this approach, but the chances are that people are working on:</p>

<ul>
<li>One fairly well focused project only </li>
<li>Are working on pairs or communicating regularly </li>
<li>Are producing something that is very techy oriented (I still haven&#8217;t been able to &#8216;deploy&#8217; GitHub into my environment (even though I want to badly do it) so they are failing somewhere </li>
<li>Their productivity (overall) might be pretty poor &#8211; while they might feel like they are doing loads, but in fact GitHub is not known for churning out significant innovations non-stop</li>
<li>Their team is likely to be (very) small, so ah-hoc communication will do just fine</li>
</ul>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Gabe da Silveira</title>
		<link>http://rc3.org/2010/02/20/extreme-agility/comment-page-1/#comment-8054</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabe da Silveira</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:26:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rc3.org/?p=10784#comment-8054</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I&#039;m not sure it&#039;s a useful exercise to try to quantify what makes this type of workflow possible.  The obvious truth is that Github has almost unlimited sex appeal and dogfooding potential.  It&#039;s the perfect storm of talent and market opportunity.  Not every programmer is interested in version control for this to be their dream job, but certainly enough do that Github will never have any trouble hiring the exact type of person they need at any given time.  Also, since the target market is programmers, there&#039;s diminished no need for separate domain experts, analysts, or marketers.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;In short, when you add it all up, Github has an amazing developer-centric profile that is literally one in a million as far as real-world profitable businesses are concerned.  It might make us feel good to enumerate the things that are holding &lt;em&gt;our&lt;/em&gt; companies back from this kind of process, but I think it&#039;s more productive to ask what we can learn from that process, and how can we utilize our individual company cultures to implement processes that are more agile than the &quot;Agile&quot; processes which have been developed, refined and packaged by consultants whose proven skillset by definition has been marketing their ideas rather than any provable development talent.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure it&#8217;s a useful exercise to try to quantify what makes this type of workflow possible.  The obvious truth is that Github has almost unlimited sex appeal and dogfooding potential.  It&#8217;s the perfect storm of talent and market opportunity.  Not every programmer is interested in version control for this to be their dream job, but certainly enough do that Github will never have any trouble hiring the exact type of person they need at any given time.  Also, since the target market is programmers, there&#8217;s diminished no need for separate domain experts, analysts, or marketers.</p>

<p>In short, when you add it all up, Github has an amazing developer-centric profile that is literally one in a million as far as real-world profitable businesses are concerned.  It might make us feel good to enumerate the things that are holding <em>our</em> companies back from this kind of process, but I think it&#8217;s more productive to ask what we can learn from that process, and how can we utilize our individual company cultures to implement processes that are more agile than the &#8220;Agile&#8221; processes which have been developed, refined and packaged by consultants whose proven skillset by definition has been marketing their ideas rather than any provable development talent.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Chris Dent</title>
		<link>http://rc3.org/2010/02/20/extreme-agility/comment-page-1/#comment-8049</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Dent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 12:07:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rc3.org/?p=10784#comment-8049</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I wrote a little reaction to this on my blog trying to wrap it in some general principles of effective collaboration.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;http://cdent.tumblr.com/post/404793442/choosing-to-know-implicit-goals&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wrote a little reaction to this on my blog trying to wrap it in some general principles of effective collaboration.</p>

<p><a href="http://cdent.tumblr.com/post/404793442/choosing-to-know-implicit-goals" rel="nofollow">http://cdent.tumblr.com/post/404793442/choosing-to-know-implicit-goals</a></p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: PJ Hyett</title>
		<link>http://rc3.org/2010/02/20/extreme-agility/comment-page-1/#comment-8047</link>
		<dc:creator>PJ Hyett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:33:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rc3.org/?p=10784#comment-8047</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;@moonmaster9000 we deploy whenever we want.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@moonmaster9000 we deploy whenever we want.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Tekkub</title>
		<link>http://rc3.org/2010/02/20/extreme-agility/comment-page-1/#comment-8045</link>
		<dc:creator>Tekkub</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 07:25:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rc3.org/?p=10784#comment-8045</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Damn Ryan... you wrote more than the original post.  You must like it here.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Release management?  We don&#039;t have &quot;releases&quot; in the traditional sense.  When something is ready, it gets deployed.  We might try to deploy a few things at once, but we don&#039;t have some number with a deadline that says &quot;on this date we&#039;re releasing this version with features X, Y and Z.&quot;  I guess that&#039;s &quot;continuous deployment,&quot; if you want to label it.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The funny thing is, as support, I&#039;m on the opposite side of things here.  I&#039;ve come to accept that my primary job is two-fold.  First, of course, I have to keep the customers happy.  The things I can&#039;t fix quickly, I have to track someone down to fix.  That makes my secondary job harassing everyone to fix things they don&#039;t want to deal with.  When all else fails, I dive into the code and fix it myself.  Having the freedom to take an afternoon to program is wonderful, and it really helps me not get burned out on the customer relations side of things.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;
  &lt;p&gt;The business must not have customers who are promised certain features by a certain date. Customers of every software company I’ve ever worked for have requested features that no developer wants to work on, but they pay the bills, so we worked on them anyway.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Honestly, I question the need need for such promises.  We never ever give dates or timelines beyond &quot;soon&quot; to customers.  There are things we honestly want to implement, or bugs that we are still tracking down, but we don&#039;t know when those will be done.  I believe that giving the customer a date is harmful in two ways here.  First off, we don&#039;t know if the date is even realistic, so there&#039;s a good chance we&#039;re lying to the customer.  Telling them &quot;yea I pulled that date out of my ass&quot; only makes it worse.  Second, imposing a deadline just adds stress to the developer for no good reason.  The developer rushes to meet the deadline, bad code is made, things don&#039;t go according to plan, deadlines are often missed.  You&#039;re only setting yourself and the user up for disappointment.  We have never had a user upset because we wouldn&#039;t give a timeframe yet, and I hope we never do.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Sure, some deadlines are unavoidable, but I think that keeping the deadlines restricted to bare necessity is a great thing.  When you&#039;re not spending times planning where things will go, you spend more time going there.  In the end you&#039;re going to reach the same place, but the trip is going to be much more enjoyable.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Damn Ryan&#8230; you wrote more than the original post.  You must like it here.</p>

<p>Release management?  We don&#8217;t have &#8220;releases&#8221; in the traditional sense.  When something is ready, it gets deployed.  We might try to deploy a few things at once, but we don&#8217;t have some number with a deadline that says &#8220;on this date we&#8217;re releasing this version with features X, Y and Z.&#8221;  I guess that&#8217;s &#8220;continuous deployment,&#8221; if you want to label it.</p>

<p>The funny thing is, as support, I&#8217;m on the opposite side of things here.  I&#8217;ve come to accept that my primary job is two-fold.  First, of course, I have to keep the customers happy.  The things I can&#8217;t fix quickly, I have to track someone down to fix.  That makes my secondary job harassing everyone to fix things they don&#8217;t want to deal with.  When all else fails, I dive into the code and fix it myself.  Having the freedom to take an afternoon to program is wonderful, and it really helps me not get burned out on the customer relations side of things.</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>The business must not have customers who are promised certain features by a certain date. Customers of every software company I’ve ever worked for have requested features that no developer wants to work on, but they pay the bills, so we worked on them anyway.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Honestly, I question the need need for such promises.  We never ever give dates or timelines beyond &#8220;soon&#8221; to customers.  There are things we honestly want to implement, or bugs that we are still tracking down, but we don&#8217;t know when those will be done.  I believe that giving the customer a date is harmful in two ways here.  First off, we don&#8217;t know if the date is even realistic, so there&#8217;s a good chance we&#8217;re lying to the customer.  Telling them &#8220;yea I pulled that date out of my ass&#8221; only makes it worse.  Second, imposing a deadline just adds stress to the developer for no good reason.  The developer rushes to meet the deadline, bad code is made, things don&#8217;t go according to plan, deadlines are often missed.  You&#8217;re only setting yourself and the user up for disappointment.  We have never had a user upset because we wouldn&#8217;t give a timeframe yet, and I hope we never do.</p>

<p>Sure, some deadlines are unavoidable, but I think that keeping the deadlines restricted to bare necessity is a great thing.  When you&#8217;re not spending times planning where things will go, you spend more time going there.  In the end you&#8217;re going to reach the same place, but the trip is going to be much more enjoyable.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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